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	<title>Comments on: On Nothing: Denys the Aeropagite names the nothing</title>
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	<link>http://www.thelandofunlikeness.com/2009/10/26/on-nothing-denys-the-aeropagite-names-the-nothing/</link>
	<description>Catholic Anglican Reflections on Theology and Culture</description>
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		<title>By: matslacker</title>
		<link>http://www.thelandofunlikeness.com/2009/10/26/on-nothing-denys-the-aeropagite-names-the-nothing/comment-page-1/#comment-1785</link>
		<dc:creator>matslacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:56:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Interesting. Thanks, that helps a lot. Theurgy then sounds at least remotely consonant with some Hindu guru rites, wherein the &quot;inner state&quot; of the trainee doesn&#039;t really matter at all--what matters is that she just *do* all of the rites in correct sequence and number. And when she does, her enlightenment, or the particular gift accompanying the rites, inevitably follows.

Along those lines, I agree that the Orthodox Christian conception is distinct: Nyssa, for instance, says numerous times, &quot;it is not the standing for long hours in prayer, or the making of many prostrations, which brings one to God, but the giving of the heart to God.&quot; He goes on to say that if one&#039;s ascetic efforts bear no fruit--the fruits of the Spirit--they were utterly useless. Worse, they make the ascetic out to have been a fool. The trick is that, on account of this understanding of ascesis as wholly secondary (training for a race is good, but is not to be confused with running the race), he nonetheless is quite clear about it&#039;s importance, too!

I realize I switched to ascesis when you were talking about liturgy. The two don&#039;t completely overlap, but I think that some of the logic applies in both cases. I mean, current Eastern Orthodox understanding of the liturgy is such that its effectiveness is not &quot;automatic.&quot; The priest may not celebrate without the people, and the people are not adjuncts: if they are not praying truly (from the heart, where God alone judges the heart), nothing occurs! So St Theophan the Recluse will say that true prayer is prayer from the heart (i.e., basically, with the whole being--in rapt attention); when that exceeds one&#039;s capacity, praying with the mind alone (i.e., consciously concentrating on the words and their meaning, is a partial form of prayer that God also honors--in part on account of the effort). But inattentive prayer, he says, is no prayer at all! B/c the whole point is the communion of the heart with God. Which, again, is a totally different economy than in Hindu guru rites, and possibly than in theurgical rites.

All of which returns me to my initial question: so what is Pseudo-D doing w/ the term &quot;theurgy&quot;? How does he use it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting. Thanks, that helps a lot. Theurgy then sounds at least remotely consonant with some Hindu guru rites, wherein the &#8220;inner state&#8221; of the trainee doesn&#8217;t really matter at all&#8211;what matters is that she just *do* all of the rites in correct sequence and number. And when she does, her enlightenment, or the particular gift accompanying the rites, inevitably follows.</p>
<p>Along those lines, I agree that the Orthodox Christian conception is distinct: Nyssa, for instance, says numerous times, &#8220;it is not the standing for long hours in prayer, or the making of many prostrations, which brings one to God, but the giving of the heart to God.&#8221; He goes on to say that if one&#8217;s ascetic efforts bear no fruit&#8211;the fruits of the Spirit&#8211;they were utterly useless. Worse, they make the ascetic out to have been a fool. The trick is that, on account of this understanding of ascesis as wholly secondary (training for a race is good, but is not to be confused with running the race), he nonetheless is quite clear about it&#8217;s importance, too!</p>
<p>I realize I switched to ascesis when you were talking about liturgy. The two don&#8217;t completely overlap, but I think that some of the logic applies in both cases. I mean, current Eastern Orthodox understanding of the liturgy is such that its effectiveness is not &#8220;automatic.&#8221; The priest may not celebrate without the people, and the people are not adjuncts: if they are not praying truly (from the heart, where God alone judges the heart), nothing occurs! So St Theophan the Recluse will say that true prayer is prayer from the heart (i.e., basically, with the whole being&#8211;in rapt attention); when that exceeds one&#8217;s capacity, praying with the mind alone (i.e., consciously concentrating on the words and their meaning, is a partial form of prayer that God also honors&#8211;in part on account of the effort). But inattentive prayer, he says, is no prayer at all! B/c the whole point is the communion of the heart with God. Which, again, is a totally different economy than in Hindu guru rites, and possibly than in theurgical rites.</p>
<p>All of which returns me to my initial question: so what is Pseudo-D doing w/ the term &#8220;theurgy&#8221;? How does he use it?</p>
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		<title>By: Josh Brockway</title>
		<link>http://www.thelandofunlikeness.com/2009/10/26/on-nothing-denys-the-aeropagite-names-the-nothing/comment-page-1/#comment-1784</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh Brockway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:44:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;ll bite!  I think you have a good schema going.  Traditionally, theurgy has been described just as you lay it out, that is the kind of human effort to climb back up through the cosmological hierarchy.  

I do think though that Iamblichus in &quot;On the Mysteries&quot; is a little more &quot;religious&quot; in his understanding of the rites.  First, the language of the rites (the invocation and evocation as you named it) is divinely given.  This means two things: first the human is the recipient of a divine favor/action even in the theurgical rites; and two, this language has to be preserved since it is divinely spoken.  Though the first might sound more like Nyssa and Augustine, and thus Christian, the latter is what I think separates theurgy from theosis, or more precisely liturgy.  

The piece I think is fascinating is that Iamblichus is clear that theurgical formation is not really about human effort.  He wouldn&#039;t use the language of grace, but the initial action is always from the divine side.  The question for me is more about the nature of liturgy and worship than about theosis.  I am still trying to unpack a kind of comparison between theurgy and Christian liturgy.  Suffice it to say, I think its no coincidence that Julian &quot;The Apostate&quot; returned to the Neo-Platonic theurgists to replace the role of Christian worship in the late Roman Empire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll bite!  I think you have a good schema going.  Traditionally, theurgy has been described just as you lay it out, that is the kind of human effort to climb back up through the cosmological hierarchy.  </p>
<p>I do think though that Iamblichus in &#8220;On the Mysteries&#8221; is a little more &#8220;religious&#8221; in his understanding of the rites.  First, the language of the rites (the invocation and evocation as you named it) is divinely given.  This means two things: first the human is the recipient of a divine favor/action even in the theurgical rites; and two, this language has to be preserved since it is divinely spoken.  Though the first might sound more like Nyssa and Augustine, and thus Christian, the latter is what I think separates theurgy from theosis, or more precisely liturgy.  </p>
<p>The piece I think is fascinating is that Iamblichus is clear that theurgical formation is not really about human effort.  He wouldn&#8217;t use the language of grace, but the initial action is always from the divine side.  The question for me is more about the nature of liturgy and worship than about theosis.  I am still trying to unpack a kind of comparison between theurgy and Christian liturgy.  Suffice it to say, I think its no coincidence that Julian &#8220;The Apostate&#8221; returned to the Neo-Platonic theurgists to replace the role of Christian worship in the late Roman Empire.</p>
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		<title>By: matslacker</title>
		<link>http://www.thelandofunlikeness.com/2009/10/26/on-nothing-denys-the-aeropagite-names-the-nothing/comment-page-1/#comment-1782</link>
		<dc:creator>matslacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 20:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelandofunlikeness.com/2009/10/26/on-nothing-denys-the-aeropagite-names-the-nothing/#comment-1782</guid>
		<description>So could one of you take a stab at a more precise definition of the term. I mean, at first blush, I thought the neo-platonic usage tended towards divine invocation or evocation, but in a process focused more or less on human engagement. In theosis, at least as the notion is discussed by Nyssa and Maximos (the concept is clearly in Nyssa, though he doesn&#039;t use the term), it is clear that the economy is Divine, that while humans must freely engage in giving their hearts to God, it is always God &quot;who provides the increase,&quot; and this not ever as a &quot;reward&quot; or payment (i.e., in economic exchange for a rite or etc.), but at God&#039;s discretion, pedagogically, and based on God&#039;s assessment of whether or not the heart has moved toward God (since &quot;God alone searches the heart. . . &quot;). So I took theurgy to imply a largely human economy, whereas theosis primarily focuses on a divine economy. Help me out here. I haven&#039;t read Pseudo-D.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So could one of you take a stab at a more precise definition of the term. I mean, at first blush, I thought the neo-platonic usage tended towards divine invocation or evocation, but in a process focused more or less on human engagement. In theosis, at least as the notion is discussed by Nyssa and Maximos (the concept is clearly in Nyssa, though he doesn&#8217;t use the term), it is clear that the economy is Divine, that while humans must freely engage in giving their hearts to God, it is always God &#8220;who provides the increase,&#8221; and this not ever as a &#8220;reward&#8221; or payment (i.e., in economic exchange for a rite or etc.), but at God&#8217;s discretion, pedagogically, and based on God&#8217;s assessment of whether or not the heart has moved toward God (since &#8220;God alone searches the heart. . . &#8220;). So I took theurgy to imply a largely human economy, whereas theosis primarily focuses on a divine economy. Help me out here. I haven&#8217;t read Pseudo-D.</p>
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		<title>By: DWM</title>
		<link>http://www.thelandofunlikeness.com/2009/10/26/on-nothing-denys-the-aeropagite-names-the-nothing/comment-page-1/#comment-1781</link>
		<dc:creator>DWM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 01:53:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelandofunlikeness.com/2009/10/26/on-nothing-denys-the-aeropagite-names-the-nothing/#comment-1781</guid>
		<description>Thanks Josh. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/areopagite_14_ecclesiastical_hierarchy.htm#c1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Parker&lt;/a&gt;, in his very literal trans uses deification or some variant on that.. sometimes even three or four times in one sentence. I think that in the 1890&#039;s, the term theurgy just wasn&#039;t available to him. There&#039;s no excuse for Rorem and Luibheid. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Josh. <a href="http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/areopagite_14_ecclesiastical_hierarchy.htm#c1" rel="nofollow">Parker</a>, in his very literal trans uses deification or some variant on that.. sometimes even three or four times in one sentence. I think that in the 1890&#8242;s, the term theurgy just wasn&#8217;t available to him. There&#8217;s no excuse for Rorem and Luibheid.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh Brockway</title>
		<link>http://www.thelandofunlikeness.com/2009/10/26/on-nothing-denys-the-aeropagite-names-the-nothing/comment-page-1/#comment-1780</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh Brockway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 01:39:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelandofunlikeness.com/2009/10/26/on-nothing-denys-the-aeropagite-names-the-nothing/#comment-1780</guid>
		<description>mat,

dan and I have been working on this angle for a while....so I am going to speak for him!  

Gregory Shaw noted in his article on Deny and Theurgy that theourgia shows up nearly fifty times in the Dionysian works.  Unfortunately the Christian translators (in the Classics of Western Spirituality) never reveal that in their translation.

Josh</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mat,</p>
<p>dan and I have been working on this angle for a while&#8230;.so I am going to speak for him!  </p>
<p>Gregory Shaw noted in his article on Deny and Theurgy that theourgia shows up nearly fifty times in the Dionysian works.  Unfortunately the Christian translators (in the Classics of Western Spirituality) never reveal that in their translation.</p>
<p>Josh</p>
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		<title>By: matslacker</title>
		<link>http://www.thelandofunlikeness.com/2009/10/26/on-nothing-denys-the-aeropagite-names-the-nothing/comment-page-1/#comment-1779</link>
		<dc:creator>matslacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Howdy. Long time no talky. Does Denys use &quot;theurgy&quot; or is that your gloss? I know the neo-Platonist philosophers commonly used this term . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Howdy. Long time no talky. Does Denys use &#8220;theurgy&#8221; or is that your gloss? I know the neo-Platonist philosophers commonly used this term . . .</p>
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		<title>By: DWM</title>
		<link>http://www.thelandofunlikeness.com/2009/10/26/on-nothing-denys-the-aeropagite-names-the-nothing/comment-page-1/#comment-1777</link>
		<dc:creator>DWM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelandofunlikeness.com/2009/10/26/on-nothing-denys-the-aeropagite-names-the-nothing/#comment-1777</guid>
		<description>Yes, words... AND material things. I think it&#039;s especially important to note that for Denys it takes theurgic rituals that incorporate material stuff. 
As far as &#039;moving beyond&#039; goes, there&#039;s a sense in which because the incarnate Christ, as incarnate, is completely coterminous with God, we can never really move beyond matter. but here&#039;s where Denys is really paradoxical, and not dialectical. There&#039;s no third that we dialectically arrive at, yet we must negate. It&#039;s part of the theurgic process. I&#039;m not sure what that really means, or if he&#039;s even being consistent. but it&#039;s what he says anyways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, words&#8230; AND material things. I think it&#8217;s especially important to note that for Denys it takes theurgic rituals that incorporate material stuff.<br />
As far as &#8216;moving beyond&#8217; goes, there&#8217;s a sense in which because the incarnate Christ, as incarnate, is completely coterminous with God, we can never really move beyond matter. but here&#8217;s where Denys is really paradoxical, and not dialectical. There&#8217;s no third that we dialectically arrive at, yet we must negate. It&#8217;s part of the theurgic process. I&#8217;m not sure what that really means, or if he&#8217;s even being consistent. but it&#8217;s what he says anyways.</p>
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		<title>By: A.D.</title>
		<link>http://www.thelandofunlikeness.com/2009/10/26/on-nothing-denys-the-aeropagite-names-the-nothing/comment-page-1/#comment-1776</link>
		<dc:creator>A.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:16:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What does it mean to deny all beings? I feel like it means a kind of exploratory going-past. That is, God&#039;s names must be uttered, esp. in a liturgical context, precisely because this leads us beyond the being of our theurgical activities into the non-being of the Divine. Only through words do we move beyond words</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What does it mean to deny all beings? I feel like it means a kind of exploratory going-past. That is, God&#8217;s names must be uttered, esp. in a liturgical context, precisely because this leads us beyond the being of our theurgical activities into the non-being of the Divine. Only through words do we move beyond words</p>
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